What is the significance of the frontier in American History?
Frederick Jackson Turner argued that the frontier developed the following aspects of the American character:
- ability to reevaluate, readjust, reinterpret;
- democracy, individualism, self-reliance,
- increased nationalistic feelings, and
- chance to start over.
Please read the Kezirian article, 99-103.
1. How would either John Winthrop or the Paxton Boys react to Turner’s frontier thesis? (Choose one)
2. What event from 2011 best represents or contradicts Turner’s Thesis? Why?
In your blog post, be sure you are carrying on as if you were in the best Harkness Discussion. You may choose to expand on or challenge a previous comment as long you challenge the idea and not the person presenting the ideas. There should be signs of analysis, synthesis and evaluation in your response to the prompt. Include your own thoughts and feelings, ideas and values which could include personal experiences, meaningful connections to other content, and new perspectives on the topic. Make sure your comments refer to the texts.
1. I think that John Winthrop would agree with Turner that the land and conditions had an effect on development, but would disagree that they were the sole factor in shaping American history. Winthrop, being a strong believer in the strength and unity of community would argue that the people chose to become a democracy for religious and social reasons. He would argue that the people chose democracy because it is the proper way to govern, and that the men, being pious and intelligent would acknowledge it. Overall, Winthrop would acknowledge Turner’s points, but state they were not the only factors.
2. One current event that relates to this thesis is the forming of new democracies by the Arab Spring. This new event does not support this thesis, because while the social structure, geography and climate of the Arab region and the US are entirely different, the Arab region is beginning to form democracies and develop further. This takes away from Turner’s idea that the people have to be self-dependent, because Arab nations rely heavily on imported food and materials to support their native populations.
1. I believe that John Winthrop would agree with Turner’s belief—that geography and culture played a major part in shaping the development of a region. I would also agree with Christian though that those are not the only factors involved. Since John Winthrop strongly believed in the unity and equality, I think he would argue that the people chose democracy as their form of government because it seemed to be the most equal and fair method of governing, in which everyone in the community had a say in it’s decisions. In all, I agree with Christian in that Winthrop would certainly agree with Turner’s thesis, but would consider geography and culture as only constituents of the development of a region.
2. A current event that contradicts Turner’s these could be the on-going development of democracy in Nigeria. Though many aspects of it’s developing democracy apply to geography and culture as stated in Turner’s thesis, most of the changes in the democracy in Nigeria are solely political changes—the leader of the country at the current time period would decided whether Nigeria would be democratic or not. Turner’s thesis applies to many current events, but is usually not the only effector in most cases.
1.Turner’s thesis would be more or less contested by John Winthrop because he would argue that the Frontier was not the place that shaped America. Instead he would say that his colony of Boston was the model of what civilization should be. Winthrop governed his colony with an emphasis on community and religion, as previously stated by Emily, however he detested the idea of a free democracy. I think he would see the development of democracy not as a result of geography but as the consequence of people’s dissatisfaction with the church and their want to move away from theocratic communities like Boston.
2.A current event that would contradict Turner’s thesis would be the revolution in Libya. The new government formed was not a result of geography or migration across land like Turner’s thesis suggested. Rather, it was out of disapproval for their leader and their current government and leader, Gaddafi.
1. I also believe that Winthrop would agree with Turners thesis. The parts he would agree with are that geography and culture played a major role in developing the Western region. However, I think that Winthrop would disagree that geography and culture were the important factors in the development of the west. Winthrop was the governor of the MA Bay Experiment. Therefore Winthrop strongly believed that important factors were the unity of a community. But I also believe that religion had a large influence. Democracy was a great form for government for these colonists because their definition of unity in the community is everyone is treated equal and had the same rights. Democracy supports their views because democracy treats everyone equally. Religion also contributed to the choosing of democracy because it caused many to break away from their original beliefs and caused a great dissatisfaction of many who lived within the colony. For example Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson helped the development due to their dissatisfaction of mosts beliefs. Therefore, I believe that Winthrop would agree partially with Turner’s thesis.
2. A current event that would contradict Turner’s thesis would be the arguments that are occurring between the democratic and republican parties. The President is asking for the tax to increase for the upper class to even out the amount they pay to the amount the middle class and lower class contribute. This contradicts his thesis because the issue evolving around this is that people believe that the democracy in this situation is unfair. Which ultimately will affect development of our country.
1. I think that John Winthrop would agree with the fact that geography and culture participate in shaping development, but I would agree with Emily and Christian in saying that they are not the only thing that helped shape development. I also agree with Justin when he says that Winthrop would have thought that people chose democracy not because of geography but because people were dissatisfied with the church and wanted to move away from theocratic communities. On the other hand Winthrop would agree with Turner because of his strong belief unity in a community, with a democracy people would be able to voice their opinion, be treated equally and be able to work together. Overall I think that in some ways Winthrop would agree with Turner, but say that the geography and culture were not the only things that helped shape development.
2. A current event that contradicts Turner’s Thesis is what is going on in Egypt. In early 2011 a revolution began and protests broke out against president Mubarak, leading him to resign. This was not caused solely by geography, but on how the people felt about him.
1. I would agree with Christian that Winthrop would agree with Turner that land conditions can effect cultural and social development. But Winthrop would argue that the frontier may have merely helped in America’s development but, as Justin said, he would contest that his own colony of Boston would be a better model for what American colonies should be like.
2. Turner’s thesis is present in many current events, but in events such as those that have lately occurred in Libya, it was not the land that made the people come together against their government but rather the universal feeling of an insecure system and corrupt leadership. Indeed the land made the people unique characters, but they were defined as a nation by their actions.
1) I’d like to agree with Justin, since John Winthrop would more or less agree with Turner. Geography was certainly a factor in civilization, but the values and leadership of the community were much bigger. However, Emily and Christian bring up a good point and that is that land or conditions drove the Frontier. Land was a big deal, but religion and democracy were much bigger. Winthrop allowed a democratic environment, and set the seeds for much faster development. I believe that Winthrop wouldn’t completely disagree with Turner, but he’d definately defy some of his points.
2) By far, the most obvious event in 2011 that challenges Turner’s ideals is the conflict in Libya. The people were tired of the dictatorship of Gaddafi; they demand change, but not based on territorial or economic factors, but more for the pursuit of democracy.
1. I believe that John Winthrop would somewhat agree with Turner’s thesis. Winthrop would agree with the idea of a chance to start anew. Having left England himself for religious intolerance, and moved to a place where he could worship freely, he would be a strong follower of this aspect of Turner’s thesis. However, Winthrop would not agree that individualism or self-reliance would shape the American character because he was a firm supporter of community, as stated above. Community is what united the people of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, helped their colony to survive, and made it a provincial settlement. Stating that this aspect did not form the American persona would not be something that Winthrop would have approved.
2. The 10th anniversary of 9/11 this year represents Turner’s thesis. Americans everywhere were reminded again of what it means to be an American. We thought about the everyday people who gave up their life on 9/11 to help others trapped inside and the people in the building that could not get out in time. Looking back, Americans were able to take another view at what happened that day. Nationalistic feelings were reinstated in everyone as we remembered a tragic time in our country’s past and united over a common enemy.
1.) I believe that Winthrop would agree and disagree with Turner’s thesis. I believe that he would agree with the fact that geography and culture shaped the western region of the United States. On the other hand, Winthrop would strongly disagree with Turners believe that the frontier developed individualism. Winthrop strongly believed that society must be run as a community and as one whole unit, and not with individual efforts. He strongly opposed having an individual be ahead of the community. Winthrop was the Governor of MA. Bay, which in turn, created the culture around the Boston area to strongly agree in a community.
2.) The situation that is going on in Libya strongly contradicts Turner’s thesis. The people in Libya are fighting for different reasons then for territorial reasons but rather for the fact that they did not like their leader.
The Paxton Boys would agree with the part of Turner’s frontier thesis that states that the West was necessary in order for Americans to reevaluate, readjust, and reinterpret the ways of living and cultural traditions. The group’s wild and savage ways, were bound to lead to the murders of many people. Therefore, this new geography allowed a change for Americans and their views on other people. However, the Paxton Boys lived off of other people by begging, and relying on the food they received from the Pennsylvania government. This disagrees with Turner’s believe that the frontier promoted the development of democracy and individualism because they relied on others.
I also believe that tenth anniversary of 9/11 represented Turner’s thesis because it increased nationalistic feelings by uniting us as a country again in remembrance of the people that risked their lives. We also had to reevaluate how we were running things as a country; we readjusted rules and laws, and reinterpreted the meaning of an American.
1. I would agree with what Justin said about how John Winthrop would disagree with what Turner’s thesis said. John Set up Boston as a “city on a hill” in which all other communities can look up to as a model of what civilization should be like so he would disbelieve that the frontier is what made American characteristics and rather he would believe that his colony was what inspired Americans.
2. An example of a contradiction of Turners Thesis is the “Arab Spring” where many civilizations all along the north of Africa overthrew their governments. the geography didn’t cause this, their feelings towards their leaders did.
1. I agree with Chris and also believe that John Winthrop would agree with parts of Turner’s beliefs, but disagree with others as well. I believe that he would agree with the fact that geography played a large role in shaping a culture, but at the same time, the values of the leadership in the community would play an even larger role, and have more of an impact on the development of American character. I think WInthrop would mostly disagree with the statement that democracy developed on the fromtier because he was not the type of person who felt that a community should be led by one person specifaclly, but rather have many citizens contribute a little bit. Therefore, the concepts of democracy did not begin on the frontier, but all the way back to when he was in charge of the Massachussetts Bay colony.
2. I think that the events on Libya best represent Turner’s thesis. They do because in Libya, a dictator was overhtrown, which shows that they agreed with his policies of democracy, and a chance to start over. Also, when a government is overthrown, the citizens have all shown the characteristics of being able to re-evaluate, and readjust and they must have had increased nationalistic feelings as well.
ISN’T HAVING LOTS OF CITIZENS CONTRIBUTING WHAT DEMOCRACY IS?
1. I agree with Christian K. that John Winthrop would have agree with Turner that land conditions can effect cultural and social development. However, Winthrop would have argued that the frontier may have only aided in America’s development but, I also agree with Justin’s opinion that he would argue that his own colony of Boston is a better model for what the perfect American colony should be.
2. Turner’s thesis is present in many recent, and current events, but in events such as those that have lately occurred in Libya, as Jacob D. said, it was not the land that made the people rebel against their government, but the universal feeling of an insecure system and corrupt leadership. yes the land made the people have unique characteristics, but they were defined as a nation by their actions as individuals.
1. The Paxton Boys would strongly agree with Turner’s thesis. Being “frontiersmen,” as they were referred to, their affinity for the frontier is clearly shown by their deliberate expansion towards the West. This leads me to believe that they’d only argue for the positive influence it has on the development of the “American character,” which exemplifies Turner’s thesis. Also, the Paxton Boys’ actions epitomize the characteristics that Turner believed the frontier shaped; their demand for tax relief and financial support for their defense against the Indians on the frontier exhibits their strong sense of individualism and democracy and their keenness to defend it against oppression.
2. I agree with Christian in the sense that this year’s Arab Spring activity is very relative to Turner’s thesis. But contrary to Christian’s opinion, I believe that the Arab Spring of 2011 supports Turner’s thesis. Although Turner argues specifically that the American frontier helped to develop aspects of the American character like democracy, nationalism, etc, I believe that his thesis generally represents the idea that characteristics of a region have an impact on the characteristics of its people. For whatever reason, revolutions of the Arab Spring persist to this day, and one explanation I have for it is that something about the physical region of the Arab world invokes the kind of zeal and rebellious spirit that can be observed in the revolutions of Egypt, Libya, and so many more, perfectly coinciding with Turner’s thesis.
1. I agree with Dennis and Chris in the sense that John Winthrop would definitely agree on culture and geography shaping the Western Region of the United States, however I believe that Winthrop would disagree with the part in Turner’s thesis where it discusses the frontier developing individualism. John Winthrop was a strong believer in community and establishing a foundation that a colony could live on (The Puritans are a prime example of this). In addition, the people of the Massachusetts Bay Colony were united through community and basically survived because of this, therefore Winthrop would not have agreed with the individualism idea simply because he did not think that one member of the society should be more important than another.
2. I also believe that the 10th anniversary of 9/11 best represents Turner’s thesis because it brought our country together and instilled nationalism among all of us. This act of terrorism made our country reevaluate many rules and regulations and overall brought our country together to defeat our enemy.
1. I would also agree that John Winthrop would not agree with the Turner’s thesis. WInthrop would most likely state that the earliest evidence of “true” civiliazation occured in Boston as well as the New England colonies and not the Frontier. Winthrop, as Justin earlier stated, governed the colony based mainly on religion as well as community. I disagree with the statement that he was not intending to create a democracy, however. I think Winthrop wanted to include religion and community within a democracy or a way to govern his colonists. I would agree also with what critics have mentioned about Turner’s ideas. His focus on geographical reasons for civilization arent axactly realistic. Civilizatioin has more to do with how the people react to the geography and what they do with the land; “Land is Passive, People are aggressive.” I think this conclusion is what Winthrop would attempt to establish with his success in the Boston and New England settlements.
2. The war that is still occuring in Afghanistan is a prime, and unfortunate, example that represents Turner’s thesis. One of the reasons we went to war was for natural resources, ie; oil. The middle east has a fantastic supply of oil that the U.S. wants to utilise. The war is how we acted upon the land, proving how the geography can make people act in interesting ways.
BUT TURNER WOULD SAY BOSTON WAS THE FRONTIER IN 1620.
1. I agree with Christian K. saying that Winthrop would agree with Turners thesis that land can affect the social and cultural development, however I also agree with Dennis’ in the idea that the frontier helped with Americas development.The one thing that Winthrop would not agree with is the idea that democracy developed on the frontier because he stood more for the idea that one person should be governing a community rather than the community as a whole. The idea of democracy did not really develop on the frontier but more so in the Massachusetts Bay Colony.
2.In terms of a current event that represents or contradicts Turner’s thesis is the situation going on in Libya today,this is a perfect example of what a democracy is not. The people of Libya are at war over the fact that their leader is a dictator rather than land and territory.
1) I agree with many of the people above. Winthrop would have believed that the environment and geography played a minimal part in shaping civilization. Most people would agree that this plays a factor, even if they do not believe it plays a big role. I think Winthrop would agree with some of the historians that said, “Turner placed too much emphasis on real estate, and not enough on state of mind.” Winthrop would have agreed in the social and political aspects shaping a society. As a Puritan, he believed in keeping tight control politically, socially, and religiously to create one strong, single unit. At first, the Puritans believed that the only way to create a successful community was to govern and interact as they did, and so they would not have believed that the environment was one of the main things that shaped society. Winthrop would agree with the statement, “Land is passive, people are active.”
2) The conflict in Libya contradicts Turner’s thesis. It shows that territorial limits and environmental factors aren’t really factors that impact us as much today. The Libyans are fighting because of the geography, but they are fighting because of their leadership and more.
1. I believe John Winthrop would argue a frontier does not support individualism. In the early colonies communities were the only way people could survive on the harsh land with hostile Native American’s on every side. In John Winthrop’s point of view an individual was setting his or herself up for failure at the hands of nature and attack.
2. An example of the way a frontier can shape a country’s character was shut down recently. The NASA Shuttle Program gave American’s a chance to readjust and reevaluate their views of space travel and it’s feasibility. It also stirred feelings of nationalism in most American’s who watched or read about launches. The Shuttle Program was shut down this year in an effort to move forward with deep space travel which should create the same effect in the American way of life.
GREAT COMMENTS
1) I believe that John Winthrop would agree with part of Turner’s Thesis saying that geography and culture played a major part in shaping the development of a region, which I would agree with Christian about. But I also feel that he would not agree with the part of the thesis that says that the frontier was what shaped America. I believe that he would argue and say that his Massachusetts colony was what shaped American because of the fact that they were part of the first people to come to the new world and not the frontier.
2) One even from 2011 that best contradicts this thesis is what is going on in Libya. The reason for this is because of the fact that they people are revolting against the government and the dictator Gaddafi, not because the geography of the lands or the natural resources.
BUT TURNER WOULD SAY THE MASS BAY WAS THE FRONTIER. THEY WERE THE FIRST SETTLERS AS TURNER ARGUED.
1.) I believe that John WInthrop would have agreed with with certain characteristics of Turners arguement. Winthrop would have agreed that the geography had some effect on the development of democracy. For example, the good soil made farming in the colonies easierm, and therefore everyone was satisfied with the land being distributed in equal amounts. However, I agree with Emily that Winthrop would not have agreed with the statement that the geography of the western frontier was the sole cause to demoncracy in America. Winthrop would have agrued that the emphasis on the unity of the commmunity and equality within the towns had an effect on the development of demoncracy. Being a governor in a Puritan colony would also cause him to believe that the need to emulate the Puritans perfect towns was another cause of demoncracy.
2.) I believe the develoopment of the Chinese government into a communist government agrees with Turners concept that geography is the main factor of demoncracy. This is because almost two-thirds of China is unihabitable due to moutaineous terrain. Therefore, Turner would argue that had the geography og China been more like that of the Western Frontier, the government may have become demoncratic rather than comunist.
YOUR FIRST PART IS TERRIFIC. PART 2 NEEDS TO BE A US CURRENT EVENT; CHINESE REVOLUTION WAS 1949. . .
1. In agreeing with the majority of the comments, I believe John Winthrop would concur with some parts of Turner’s thesis but oppose other parts. He would most likely agree that America gained the abilities to reevaluate, readjust, and reinterpret, but such abilities were not gained through the frontier but rather through his own colony in Boston, MA. His “city on a hill,” as he would argue, would be where these would be revealed. As Emily W. said, Winthrop made sure to put the emphasis on community and religion, and focused more on creating a theocracy, not a democracy. As Justin C. said, a democracy in his eyes would not come about according to the geography but rather people’s unrest with the current theocratic situation. Additionally, he would not promote the idea of individuality because in his eyes, the church was the dominant citadel of the time period.
2. As many have said, the conflicts in Libya that have dominated the front pages of the news best contradict Turner’s thesis. The unrest among citizens, caused not by geography but the uneasiness about their leader caused them to begin a revolt that would further re-shape their country.
THE IDEA IS THAT BOSTON IS THE FRONTIER. AVOID LIBYA AS AN EXAMPLE. . .FOR ALL.
1. I agree with Christian in his statement that Winthrop would believe that the geography and environment did affect the development, like Turner’s thesis implies, but was not the only primary factor. Winthrop strongly believed in a close-knit community based off of religious and social aspects of the lifestyle. Winthrop would stress the importance of the affects of these aspects on the development. However, I also agree with Justin in that he believe the “perfect government” was that of his colony, the Massachusetts Bay Colony, which expressed his belief of a community. Overall I think that Winthrop would support Turner’s thesis on some of the parts, but he would not support every part of the thesis.
2. A current event that contradicts Turner’s thesis is the occurances in Libya. In Libya the fighting was caused by a mutual feeling of insecurity with the government and its leader. The people in Libya came together to fight to make a change in the government, but the driving force was not the geography or environment, instead the beliefs of the people.
1. I agree with Jake that the Paxton Boys would agree with Turner’s thesis. They were one of the first groups in colonial America to seek change by demanding tax relief from the British and money to support all sorts of defenses against the Indians in the West. Although they were English, their desire was not to help England with the war debt, but to better the colonies within America. The fact that they were frontiersman would suggest that they would agree with Turner that the expansion into the West was a positive thing.
2. I believe that the 10th anniversary of 9/11 is a current event that represents Turner’s thesis because it brought up the nationalistic feelings in Americans that were present when it first occurred. After 9/11, most people had to readjust to new regulations that provided a larger sense of security against other possible threats. Although it was a tragic event, it was something that gave America a chance to start over and re-unify.
1. I agree with Denise that Winthrop would have agreed that the land was a factor in how democracy evolved. But I think he would have felt strongly that leadership within the colonies was a larger factor in the development of a democratic society. Furthermore Winthrop would argue that the type of people immigrating to America influenced the types of governments that were set up.
2. The best event in 2011 that contradicts Turner’s thesis is the overthrow of the Libyan government. The only incentive they had was to gain democracy and better their lives. The land had nothing to with their upheaval of the government.
1. The Paxton boys would agree with Turner’s frontier thesis which states that the western colonial frontier defined part of the American identity. They clearly displayed a sense of individualism when they marched on Philadelphia demanding a “reevaluation” of their taxes. It was a nationalistic cause, because they wanted to fight a common enemy in the Indians for America, but at the same time, they needed funding and were willing to demand it, as individuals.
2. A major event that supports Turner’s thesis is the death of Osama Bin Laden. This “frontier” that exists in the middle east is the site of several ongoing conflicts for the United States, and even though our country is far from reaching a consensus on this region, an event like the killing of a man as infamous as Bin Laden united the American people for a short while, and gave everyone a sense of new hope with the War on Terror.
1. I would have to agree with the responses saying that Winthrop would agree with the majority of Fredrick Turner’s frontier thesis. Turner believed in individualism and equality, the fact that all of the citizens should be equal when they arrive on the frontier. I believe that Winthrop would strongly agree with that portion of Turner’s thesis, when Winthrop arrived on the frontier he told the rest of his people that they needed to work together as equals in order to survive in the new environment, and that is why their thoughts on equality in the frontier parallel one another.
2. I also agree with those saying that the anniversary of 9/11 parallels Turners thoughts on Nationalism in the second half of the first page of the article. Turner spoke of the importance of nationalism and now in the twenty-first century after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center American’s thoughts and interest on nationalism are still there and have increased after the attack.
1.I believe that the Paxton Boys would strongly support Turner’s ideas about how the west shaped the “American as we know it”. This is because Turner argued that the West or “the frontier” shaped its inhabitants into people that could adapt to their environment, and use the resources at their disposal to become self reliant. The Paxton Boys were a perfect example of these principles, and I can only assume that they would support their own ideals. In all, this idea of self sufficient individualism would eventually grow to form the democracy that we know today.
2.Some current events that would contradict Turner’s thesis are the revolutions in the Middle East and northern Africa. These democracies are coming to power in a region that is absolutely nothing like the old American west, geographically as well as socially. Also the formation of these governments were not a result of a population migration to a more open area of opportunity, but a stand against unsympathetic rulers.
1. I think John Winthrop would agree with Turner’s thesis in saying that geography and environment do shape societies today but it is not the biggest factor. Being a Puritan, Winthrop believed more in the social, political and religious effects on society. Using these three he wanted to create a perfect community all working to fulfill God’s law. With this ideology he would agree that land wasn’t the biggest influence but the closeness of the community is. This also shows that he did not believe in individualism but all the people working together and that one person is not any more important than the next.
2. As many people have commented above, the situation in Libya supports this theory. It is not the land in which the people are fighting over but the people ruling it. The country as a whole is feeling apprehensive because of the corrupt leadership and the land did not cause this, actions did.
1. I agree with Emily that John Winthrop would object Turner’s thesis because although Turner specifically refers to the West as the place that shaped America, Winthrop would argue that because Massachusetts would be the starting point of America because it was the location of the model city which he founded. It offered a chance for Puritans to start over and escape from the strictures of England, which he believes set an example for the rest of the country to follow. Winthrop believes not only is the frontier giving so many opportunities, it’s the unexplored land that people are discovering and colonizing which provides new opportunities.
2. An event from 2011 which represents Turner’s thesis is the current struggle for democracy in India—to establish the rule of law as well as ensure democratic control over natural resources such as (land, water, forest and minerals). It relates to Turner’s thesis because it illustrates how the limited available resources have affected the development of a certain democracy.
1. I agree with many people above including Christian, Dennis, and Michael in stating that John Winthrop would agree with the Turner thesis stating that geography and culture play a crucial role in shaping a region. However i would agree with Leah in saying that Winthrop would not have agreed with the statement that the geography of the western frontier was the sole cause to democracy in America. Winthrop would have believed that the value of a strong and close community would strongly develop a democracy. A unanimous religion would contribute strongly to a theocracy thus strengthening the surrounding democracy. Winthrop would disagree with the individualism and self-reliance aspect of the frontier life because of his strong belief in community. In conclusion, Winthrop would mostly disagree with the Turner thesis because he believed in the people having a say in the government as opposed to the frontier lifestyle where there is one leader.
2. The events currently unraveling in Libya best represent Turner’s thesis. The people united as one to take down the leader who was constantly ruining their country. The people wanted a democracy so they are revolting against Muammar Gaddafi. The citizens chose to re-evalaute to the situation, re-adjust their way of living, and gain a strong sense of nationalism.
1.I agree with many (including but not limited to Christian K, Jake K., Emily W., and Jacob D.) that Winthrop would support Turner’s thesis on the grounds of attaining the ability to reevaluate,readjust, and reinterpret after landing onto new land. Winthrop and his followers showed that land and location can put an emphasis on social order and a chance to start anew. The Puritans looked for a “safety valve” from the strict intolerance of their religious beliefs in Great Britain, and emigrated to the frontier to start a new life with their own democratic ideals and self-reliance. This point, of self-reliance (as a whole community),however is contradictory to Turner’s view that individuals solely can rely on the abundance of nature in the frontier. Thus (like many of my classmates have already said), Winthrop would disagree with Turner on the grounds of individualism because Winthrop believed that the Puritans should set forth a paramount community of “a city upon a hill” which acted as whole rather than individuals standing out.
2. An event from 2011 that supports Turners thesis would be the 10th Anniversary of 9/11 because Americans across the nation came together to honor the lives of those that passed away on that day. This brings us back to the point that 9/11 truly, in essence, strengthened the American spirit and brought forth outstanding nationalism among Americans.
1. I think that John Winthrop would somewhat agree with Turner’s thesis. I think as many have stated above he would agree that the frontier did help with development due to its geography and people looking to reevaluate whatever situation they were currently in. However, I think that Winthrop would not agree with the fact that the frontier led to developing democracy. He thought that community through religion was what should make up the government. I think he would argue as many have said that people were unhappy with the system in current use and that led more to the developing democracy. I think that he would see the frontier as just a part of the developing of the things mentioned in Turner’s thesis but would argue that there were many other factors that played large roles in the developing of these aspects of American character as well.
2. An event that represents Turner’s thesis is the 10 year anniversary of 9/11. As people commemorated and remembered the victims of the terrorist attack it brought about feelings of nationalism in many. People remembered the day and how the country united to keep moving forward. As people looked back upon the event they were able to look at what had happened and remember and think about the events of that day.
1. I agree with Justin and Emily. In my opinion Winthrop woulod agree that land condition influenced the develpoment of America, but he would argue that Boston did more than the frontier to shape America. However, he would have believed that there were other critical influences to the development of America such as religion and collaboration.
2. In my opinion the Southern Sudanese independence referendum completely contradicts Turner’s theory. The southern area of Sudan seperating from the rest of the country proves that the characteristics of that region didn’t effect those two nations. The North and South of Sudan have almost identical conditions, yet Southern Sudan has established themselves as a different type of nation. The northern part of Sudan uses very contreversial methods to attain their desires. South Sudan has seperated themselves from the north by using more peaceful methods to deal with their problems. The indentical characteristics of the two nations and their difference in judicial operation demonstrates how Turner’s theory can be contradicted.
I BELIEVE THAT MINERALS AND OIL HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THIS. RIGHT NOW THERE IS DEFINITELY VIOLENCE IN SOUTH SUDAN. MAKE THIS COMMENT BE ABOUT THE U.S.
1. I agree with Christian in that John Winthrop would agree with Turner’s concept that the land and conditions develope the American characteristics they so admired. He would have argued that the region where the characteristics were developed was his “city upon the hill.” I also agree with Christian’s statement that Winthrop beleived tha community played a large role as well. The Puritans prided themselves on their strong sense of unity and community and would have argued that the characteristics developed because of it. Winthrop would have supported parts of Turner’s claim, but made sure to point out that the land was not the only factor.
2.I would agree with Jacon D.’s claim that the Libyan revolutions defy Turner’s theory. The Libyans called for democracy in a place where it was not widely regarded and had not played a large role in their lives. If anything, their location should have prevented them from critisizing the government.THis disproves Turner’s theory that American characteristics were developed on the Frontier. The Libyan displayed what we would regard as “American characteristics,” and location had nothing to do with it.
1. I agree with many that John Winthrop would agree with certain parts of Turner’s thesis. Bother Turner and Winthrop believed that land played a huge part in the formation of America. However, Winthrop believed there were more factors than land in the formation of America. While Turner felt that land was the only factor in the formation of America.
2. I also agree that the 10th anniversary f 9/11 represents Turner’s thesis. Turner believed that nationalism was a unifying force. We have definitely seen this in these 10 years after 9/11. After 9/11 our country had tons of nationalistic feelings and as a result we were very unified. These feelings of unity and nationalism only grew with the 10th anniversary. Americans seem to be most unified and have many nationalistic feeling around 9/11 each year.
1. I think John Winthrop would disagreed with Turner’s Thesis for the most part but agrees with some at the same time. Winthrop believed that being, “quick to find expedients” as Turner put it, was a good thing that they had every right to do. The settlers were easily able to adapt into their new environment once they could find the better crops for the region. If the Natives only used certain land in some seasons then the land was put to more use by the English settler’s use of farming, cultivating, and living. If the English settlers had never gone on with this frontier idea then they might have stayed on the East Coast for a very long time, and the USA would not be what it is today. He would agree on that, however, I think that Winthrop would disagree with many points as well. His ideas were of a close community where everyone obeyed the customs of puritans and their very rigid religious society. Turner says that Individualism was a big trait that the frontier had. However being an individual in puritan society was completely against his views and he took the land readily if it was open. Part of his belief was that the Puritans could rely on each other to get jobs done for t he community, never for yourself. In addition, Turner said that this individualism which helped with the American Democracy which is also against Winthrops views. He thought that a Democracy was the most intelligent way of controlling the settlers, it had nothing to do with it being tied together with individualism. Turner said that part of the frontier notion is to be happy or excited about expansion that comes with the freedom to move forward. However, the puritans had a lot of rules and divided what land they “took” from the natives between those who were going to live in the community, or for farming and so on. In all, I think that John Winthrop agreed with only the expedients part of Turners Thesis and disagreed with most of his other views.
2. Like many people already talked about, the 2011 event of the Libyan Civil War/Revolution contradicts Turner’s Thesis. This revolution is not made up of individuals fighting against a ruler that they don’t want, but numerous citizens who feel as if he is an unjust ruler. Turner talked about fighting for good and for evil and if both sides are fighting for what they believe is just or right then they must believe the others point of view is wrong if not evil. In addition, Turner talked about “buoyancy and exuberance” which comes wit freedom and this is what these two sides are fighting for, the satisfaction of the freedom to have what you want in your country and these are some of the main points of what Turner was saying in his thesis.
1- I believe that John Winthrop would disagree with Turner’s thesis. In Winthrop’s “flawless” Puritan society, they based their social development around a chruch or meeting house; they kept everyone in the community nice and close to each other. If Winthrop were to hear that the expanding of the American colonies led to a chance to start over and led to the ability to reevaluate and readjust, I feel as though he would strongly oppose this thesis. In his Puritan society, not many ventured past the city limits, especially in Salem during the witch trials, because people were deemed sinners and witches for conversing with the Devil in the forest. If he heard that the quest for more settlements was pushing westward, i feel as though he would feel misplaced in this new society and feel as though all his hard work to set up a perfect community has crumbled to nothing.
2- I agree that the 10th anniversary of September 11th. Although the terrorists who caused this terrible tradgedy did, in a way, give the United States a chance to start over, they also fueled the fire and gave the American troops another reason to fight harder and protect our counrty. The allowed us to start over because they opened our eyes to the potential dangers out there, and that people are willing to go beyond belief with acts of hatred. Even though the war in Afghanistan and Iraq has been going on for 10+ years, there has been no draft yet which shows that people are still offering their lives for their country and those who have already lost someone.
Okiay – if Turner is writing about the development of the American Character, how do developments in Libya relate? I was expecting events here in the U.S. which would help us in our quest to define the American character. I know this is Amerocentric, but, that is our scope. If you discussed US action in Libya, maybe. . .So can we get on another track outside of Libya?
I believe John Winthrop would agree and disagree with Turner’s thesis. Winthrop would support Turner’s idea that the land played a key role in developing the west, but would disagree with Turner’s idea of democracy and individualism. Winthrop believes that a community must be united and so, as a governor, he ran his state by keeping people close together and this is what he valued a model society. He would not approve of Turner’s democratic ideas as Winthrop was a strong supporter of a theocratic government. He believes that religion should control the people. The events which occurred in 2011 that support Turner’s thesis would be the 10th anniversary of 9/11 and the death of Osama Bin Laden. Both events reminded Americans who they were and it made them feel nationalistic. It reminded them how they united together and fought back against their enemy.